Faith and Knowledge

• ... no one in any of the churches I've attended ever told me that I wasn't allowed to ask questions.
• Many Christians go through periods of intellectual struggle over questions about faith.
• ... God's truth does indeed transcend our human understanding.
• ... coming to know God is something that each of us must experience individually.
• When I say that God reveals Himself to each believer I don't mean that we all have heard Him speak audibly ...
• Yes, it takes courage to stand against the crowd ...
• If you think the Christian message is so relevant and humane, why then do you also call it unevidenced ...
• I certainly didn't mean to imply that Christianity can be shown to be true ONLY through historical events.
• You've made some interesting observations about differences in how atheists and Christians think.
• I am not trying to defend any of the atheistic arguments that have been posted in the newsgroup, but I do want to make it clear that I don't consider atheists to be stupid.
• In addition to learning about God from the Bible, Christians also learn about God's character and will through the action of the Holy Spirit.
• I know in the same way in which every Christian knows. We know because the Holy Spirit lives within us.
• If you are thinking that I meant that the human mind can find God by its own reasoning, then either you are misunderstanding me or I didn't really say what I meant.
• There is enough objective evidence to make a very plausible intellectual case for Christianity ...
• ... if she saw a miracle happen right in front of her ...
• If there are any atheists out there who actually claim to be certain that God does not exist, I would ask them, on what do you base that claim?
• Of course science can't prove that God exists, and it also can not prove that He doesn't.
• I'm not playing word games. I'm talking about the difference between doubt and denial.
• I think I can make a good case for the idea that everyone has faith in something.
• Atheists regard the claim that God exists as a hypothesis ...
• The Bible itself, and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of every believer, are proof enough, but science also shows us ...
• If you are just now starting to question your faith for the first time ...
• I looked up the word "atheism" in the online Merriam-Webster dictionary and found that two definitions of the word are given.
• Any claim to be certain that God does not exist is a statement of a philosophical assumption, not a scientific statement.
• I've been learning on the net that people who call themselves atheists don't all take the same position.
• When you realize how majestic, powerful, beautiful, awesome, and perfectly good God is ...
• When I said that faith is a matter of choice, I didn't mean that it is an easy choice.
• The Bible is not a science textbook. We should not expect it to explain much about biology or physics to us. That is not its purpose.
• I need to amend part of my previous reply a little.
• When I say that the Bible was inspired by God, I don't mean to be saying that God dictated it word for word.
• I appreciate your courtesy, but I notice that in spite of your politeness you none the less keep brushing off most of the things I say as if they did not pertain to you.
• Near the end of an especially inspiring worship service ...
• What we are talking about here is a moral and spiritual choice.
• The catch is that human perception is not entirely objective.
• When Jesus returns to earth in glory, as the Scripture tells us he will, it will be undeniable that he is the Lord.
• ... if someone challenges a Christian's faith and the Christian responds with an outburst of anger, that often indicates that the Christian's faith is shaky.
• When I first began discussing things with you, I thought you were a Christian who was raising objections to Christianity for the purpose of getting the Christians in the group to think about what we believe.
• The physical world isn't the only thing that is real.
• If you think encountering God has to mean seeing Him with your physical eyes, then you won't find anyone on earth who has seen Him, and the Bible agrees with that.
• When we seek God we have to look beyond human opinions and human interpretations ...
• I don't think it IS ok for educated people to accept Christianity without asking questions.
• I did not intend to say that our lack of ability to understand God proves that He exists.
• Do you really think the human brain is capable of understanding God fully?
• ... science and the Bible are not opposed to each other ...
• ... our choice should be based on facts ...
• It's not hard for me to understand why my words about the Comforter (i.e. the Holy Spirit) in a recent email to you didn't convince you.
• As science learns more, it does not make the Bible any less relevant.
• ... the things that science has discovered about DNA ...
• The Bible doesn't say that humans were the first species on the planet, either.
• You are right in saying that the big bang and DNA don't prove God's existence.
• I think the big bang is a good example of how the theories of science are consistent with Christianity.
• Faith is a gift we receive from God. We have to be willing to believe, and it sounds as if your friend is, but beyond that we have to let God work within us to place faith there.
• Science has discovered many things that make the existence of God look very plausible.
• You can start by recognizing that even though it does not seem to you that God is there, none the less His presence is very real in the experience of many other people.
• If you think the only people who believe in creation are uneducated fanatics ...
• Of course science does not require its practitioners to sign written statements of faith, but there certainly are concepts that scientists accept without proof.
• ... when educated people lose their faith, it is often ... because ...
• Education does not always cause people to lose their faith.
• ... we are using different definitions of the word "atheist".
• ... philosophies that start from the premise that there is no God ...
• We can't create God by believing in Him, and we also can't destroy Him by disbelieving.
• You are right that we can't deduce God's plan of salvation from what we know about the physical world.
• You are quite right that the wisdom that God gives us is always greater than anything our brains can figure out.
• ... if you are not willing to admit even the possibility that God may exist, then you will not be able to discover any evidence for His existence.
• ... The question is unavoidable ...
• No one ever accepts, or rejects, Christianity on the basis of reasoning alone ...
• ... you said something about plausibility ...
• Do you mean to say that everyone who questions Christianity always rejects it? There are numerous examples to show that that is not the case.
• The difference is whether or not you are willing to let God show you.
• ... Honest skepticism is not a sin. Willful rejection of Jesus is.
• ... Umm ... I don't think you have read very many of my posts in this group if you think that I've never questioned my faith.
• I am aware that many people believe that truth is relative, but that belief is strongly in conflict with Christianity.
• Of course we are physical creatures, but that is not all that we are.
• ... how do we learn who Jesus is?
• We are fooling ourselves if we try to invent our own private subjective ideas of what is true and what is false about the universe.
• ... In a world where so many believe that science is the only reliable source of knowledge about the world ...
• Christianity is indeed based on history, but it is not based solely on that.
• Schroedinger's cat wasn't really both dead and alive at the same time.
• Most children who grow up in Christian homes do go through a period of questioning their faith after they get older.
• The best that the physical sciences can do is to say that science does not know whether or not there is any transcendent reality beyond the physical world.
• Christians believe that the Bible is true on the basis of divine revelation and fulfilled prophecies.
• I was raised in a Christian family and accepted Christ as a child ...
• God's truth can not be corrupted and He never allows sincere people to remain deceived.
• The fact that something is widely believed, by itself, isn't proof, but ...
• When science discovers new evidence that leads scientists to revise old theories ...
• ... every bit as sure that heaven is real as ...
• Evil is not eternally self-existent, but since we experience it there has to be an answer to the question of what caused it ...
• It is normal that people with limited minds who live in a finite world have trouble understanding infinity and eternity.
• As for differences between Christianity and the non-Christian religions ...
• ... I question the assumption that what our brains and physical senses tell us is always factual.
• ... I question the idea that we always have to have a universal consensus about something among human beings before we should regard it as true.
• There are many things in the Bible that would be extremely presumptuous if they had been said by mere human beings ...
• It's not likely that any mere human beings could have invented the Christian gospel to begin with, but if they did, then that gospel is useless.
• If we hold a belief that contradicts proven fact(s), then ...
• I agree with you entirely that having faith means knowing with certainty that what we believe is true ...
• How are you defining the word "reasonable" ...
• I didn't intend to imply that we should not use our minds in dealing with our faith.
• The events of the life of Jesus do shake up our perception of reality.
• ... pretending to believe ... won't really give us any comfort.
• ... the claims of Christianity don't fly in the face of reality.
• We can't scientifically prove that God exists. Of course, no one can prove that He doesn't exist, either.
• ... If you were to say that you don't know whether there is a God or not, that could be viewed as a lack of belief ...
• We need to consider the nature of what we are trying to do in discussing faith.
• ... to report an event such as ...
• You are doing the same thing with your atheism that theists do with theism.
• ... historians don't have to prove our faith to us before we become willing to believe it.
• We should not believe something just because it hasn't been disproven, but we should stop believing anything that has been disproven.
• Faith can't be proven ... Legitimate faith can not be disproven either.
• People who have accepted Jesus often start to have some doubts later.
• Limited scientific knowledge isn't the same thing as mental illness.
• Believing in Christ certainly is emotionally satisfying, but that does not prove that emotion is the reason why we believe it.
• Atheists are making a claim that they must be held accountable for, too.
• ... atheism and theism are both logical.
• ... they simply do not want to believe.
• ... becoming a Christian is a matter of personal choice.
• People who base their faith on feelings don't really have a secure faith, because feelings are so changeable, for all of us.
• Common sense ...
• Some people are intellectuals and others aren't. That's ok.
• You object to the idea that Jesus is the only way, but aren't you just substituting another person and making the same kind of statement?
• It can be a virtue to believe something that is credible and reasonable but not fully proven. It is not a virtue to pretend to believe something that is unbelievable.
• I believe that the basic truths of Christianity were revealed by God, not invented by humans.
• Christians don't have any objection to proving things.
• We've discussed the matter of proof before.
• Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.
• Are you trying to say that there is some sort of virtue in believing in something that isn't real?
• The power of Christianity to give us real salvation and immortality depends on the historical reality of Jesus, among other things.
• It isn't honest to pretend to believe something if we know it isn't true.
• It isn't honest to place "faith" in something that we know isn't true.
• ... The Bible doesn't claim to give us all the answers.
• Ok, at least we can agree that we don't know of any human being who can claim to know everything now.
• ... I can agree that those who follow Christ will eventually have full knowledge, but it will be God who will give us that knowledge.
• ... false premises lead to false conclusions, assuming that ...
• I question the idea that a computer can calculate all of the values in an infinite series of numbers, because ...
• ... even the most intelligent individual has limited intelligence.
• ... our disagreement is at the level of premises.
• How do you know that this god that you have made of the human brain will be able to give us the results you are expecting?
• The collective intelligence of the human race is limited too.
• To say that the human brain will someday be able to understand everything requires as much faith as it takes to believe in Christ.
• ... "blind" faith is ...
• Trying to define what truth is ...
• ... the reason why life seems so complicated is that our human minds are so limited.
• ... that does not make faith and fantasy completely interchangeable.
• ... the difference between faith and fantasy.
• There is no virtue in choosing to believe a proven falsehood.
• If the evidence for God's presence seems weak to you, the only real answer to that would be for the Holy Spirit to work powerfully in your life.
• Yes, scientists are expected to be reasonable and responsible, but Christianity requires people to take responsibility too.
• If there were someone physically present on earth today who claimed to be God, as Jesus did 2000 years ago, each of us would still have to decide whether or not we accept that claim.
• ... the logical and the personal-experience arguments for belief.
• Religion involves absolutes.
• People often start with a nugget of scientific truth and then extrapolate from it ...
• A reasonable basis for belief includes both inspiration from God and a mind-set that insists that what we believe must not contradict proven facts.
• If God can be proven to exist, then why don't all educated people believe in Him?
• If I understand you correctly, the student you mention was saying that because she did not know Greek, therefore she had a right to ignore the meaning of the Greek words ...
• No one has ever scientifically proven or disproven the existence of God.
• The academics who are trying to rewrite Christian doctrine can't be counted on to get people to stay in the church.
• Yes, God is capable of revealing Himself so powerfully that no one could doubt Him, but what would it feel like to live in a world ruled by an all-powerful God who revealed Himself so unquestionably?
• Whatever is true about God will remain true regardless of how many or how few humans believe it.
• ... placing ... faith in human abilities ...
• ... religion should be required to be reasonable.
• ... God cares whether we love Him or not. Those who don't believe in Him can't have a loving relationship with Him. ...
• I can vaguely recall leaving a snack for Santa to eat near the Christmas tree on Christmas eve when I was a child, but I think I always knew that this was just a game. ...
• ... trouble telling the difference between entertainers who sing about Santa Claus as opposed to Christians who sing the praises of Jesus, the solution to this problem could come from ...
• ... fear as a way of getting people to believe ...
• I've never encountered any adult who testified that Santa actually came down through the chimneys of millions of homes on Christmas eve.
• We're defining "atheist" differently. ...
• Eternity is a state of things in which there is no such thing as time.
• The idea that there is no God is also a tenet that can not be scientifically verified.
• ... The first of these is faith, the second is make-believe.
• I think you have done a good job of illustrating why it is important for Christians to care about whether or not Jesus is real.
• It is not ok to live in a dream world, believing things that are contrary to known facts.
• ... Your idea that it doesn't matter whether Jesus was real or not ...
• A Christian who does not care whether Jesus existed or not has not paid close enough attention to the New Testament.
• Christianity is based on divine revelation.
• ... Christianity and atheism are equally logical ...
• ... if we can't think of a physical explanation for something that has occurred ...
• It is not possible for any human being either to prove or to disprove the existence of God by means of pure intellectual reasoning alone.
• I once had a discussion with a non-Christian friend who said that even if she were to see a miracle happen right in front of her, she still would not give God credit for it.
• ... it is wrong to believe something because it is convenient or because it makes us feel good ...
• ... factors such as coincidence, emotional yearnings, and strong feelings about unusual experiences we have had ...
• Serving God does not require that we give up our intellectual freedom.
• ... belief in something that we can't physically measure ... The claim that there is no God is such a thing.
• The only kind of person who could get through life without ever accepting anything on faith would be a person who is omniscient.
• Do you really believe that Christians don't ever think, or ask questions ...
• ... your mind can't prove God's existence irrefutably ...
• How do we know God? Consider what Jesus had to say about it: ...
• ... in the realm of logic ...
• It takes as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a Christian. ...
• "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face..."

Heaven and Hell

• Nothing evil ever comes from God.
• As I see it, the only people who end up in hell (i.e., in the lake of fire) are those who willfully reject Jesus Christ .
• ... He did want all of us to go to heaven, and He still does.
• ... God created angels and human beings as free creatures capable of making meaningful moral choices.
• ... God doesn't want anyone to be lost. He does everything possible to save each and every one of us.
• God doesn't stand back and look on passively while people go to hell.
• People don't go to hell because they didn't have a chance to hear the gospel while on earth.
• God does not want anyone to go to hell, so I am sure that He will do everything possible to prevent each and every one of us from going there.
• You may be thinking of heaven as a set of pleasant external circumstances, but that's not what Jesus said that heaven is.
• ... evil came into existence when the devil first chose to rebel against God.
• ... It is true that God's creation, which was originally perfect, has become corrupted by sin.
• The New Testament clearly indicates that if Christianity is not true then there are serious consequences that result from following it.
• Life on earth is a mixture of heaven and hell.
• The absence of food causes hunger.
• God did not invent a terrible punishment to inflict on those who disobey. Rather ...
• ... God will do whatever it takes to save people.
• ... since God is the source of everything that is good, separation from Him IS torture.
• When considering God's judgment, people often overlook something ...
• ... God does not take any pleasure in torturing people.
• ... I don't find any clear indication in Scripture that there is any way to prevent eternal suffering entirely, however.
• ... It's difficult to deny the reality of eternal suffering when we consider Revelation 20:10 - 15 ...
• Telling people about hell isn't a threat designed to frighten people into turning to God. To a Christian, it is simply a statement of fact.
• I think it is important for all of us to understand how painful it would actually be to be separated from God.
• We can't be sure that death is only oblivion. Those who are counting on that are placing their faith in a very questionable, unreliable notion.
• The notion of sitting on clouds playing harps forever is a childish picture of heaven that no mature person could accept.
• I'm sure you realize that you can't prove that there is no eternal life.
• ... definitions of the terms "eternal death", and "hell".
• God does not torture people. The agony of hell happens because ...
• I should add that the sufferings of hell are the unavoidable result of refusing to turn to God.
• I don't think anyone ever goes to hell inadvertently.
• ... They can go to hell if they try to avoid hearing about Jesus ...
• God does not want anyone to go to hell.
• It's always a hard question to answer: how can people who simply don't believe in Jesus be put in the same category as rapists and murderers?
• Ruling people by means of fear is not the sort of power I was thinking of.
• I agree that the joy that Christ gives us can be experienced while we are still on earth. I didn't make that clear enough in my previous post.
• I'm sorry you didn't find happiness in Christianity, but someone should testify that there are many people in the world who have found very deep happiness there.
• I don't believe God intended to shut anyone out of heaven.
• If it is possible to get everyone into heaven, I'm sure God will do that. I'm not sure it's possible, though.
• If those people who you say were killed were Christians, then they are in heaven now.
• ... God did not "create hell". What He did do was ...
• Consider what would have happened if God had not given us free will.
• .... to eliminate the existence of hell ...
• ... life does not really stop when we die.
• God does not want anyone to go to hell.
• ... a God who does not want ANYONE to be lost. ...
• ... good people who don't believe in God. ...
• ...while we are on earth we can't fully comprehend what heaven is like.
• I don't go along with the idea that praising God is the ONLY thing we will be doing in heaven.
• The difference between praising God and flattering a tyrant ...

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